This has come up a couple of times. What is the general feeling about having a list of Japanese gardening terms here? It does exist at JGarden.org already. Does that fill the need? Or is there a need for a different list or different approach?
For what it is worth (probably less than 2 bits :-[) I would like to see a more or less unified japanese language dictionary with an emphasis on the nouns used in gardening. My impression is that the one on jgarden is inadequate and there seems to be some disagreement about some of the definitions provided in JOJG. I assume that the japanese language is like english in that the meanings of words and phrases differ according to usage and have changed over the centuries.
In my first post to this forum, I asked if anyone had a suggestion for books to read/study to learn the japanese language. No one had a one.
Good. How is the garden terms list on jgarden inadequate and how can we do it better here? The difference in interpretation or meaning of words goes deeper than that.
What is your level of Japanese language at the moment? For example, conversational? basic survival? ...
Quote from: gardesignr on January 11, 2008, 09:11:17 pm
I asked if anyone had a suggestion for books to read/study to learn the japanese language. No one had a one.
Must have missed that post........
With regard to Japanese gardening (or architecture) nouns, books, no. Website, yes.
The link above is to a frequently asked question concerning stones in a tea garden.
Hit "Jaanus Home" in the upper right hand corner and you can find pretty much everything. If you know how to spell it. Or kinda know how to spell it if you take the time to search alphabetically.
Unfortunately it doesn't work both ways AKA there isn't a site that I know of that you can enter "what is the Japanese name for the lantern stone" and get a response.
the hot water bucket stone and the candle holding stone should be reversed, as in the heights are backwards.. candle stone needs to be higher to allow light into the basin; lifting the ladle should clear the basin and line up with the bucket so as not to rise ungracefully... but.. that is my taste, perhaps not everyone elses...
jaanus is good .. just think it through... edzard
Quote from: don on January 11, 2008, 11:23:12 pm
Good. How is the garden terms list on jgarden inadequate and how can we do it better here?
What is your level of Japanese language at the moment? For example, conversational? basic survival? ...
Sorry to be late replying to this .... my knowledge of the japanese language and culture is very primitive. The dictionary provided on jgarden is inadequate because there are so many lapses, so much left out. For example, 'hakoniwa', 'itabei' ja-no-hige', 'machiai', matsu no ki', 'miegakure', 'moyogi', 'miegakure', and 'tenba' are all words related in japanese gardening that I have encountered in my reading but are not defined in the jgarden dictionary. However, the link provided by Michael (thanks, Michael!) is much more useful. Complicating matters, however, is that there seem to be different ways of spelling many of the terms .... or possibly spelling errors/sloppiness on the part of the writers/posters makes it seem that way. So, yes, I would like to see a comprehensive dictionary on this site, but the one on Jaanus is probably adequate for my uses (now that I know it exists!!) 8)
As a follow-up to my post above, I would like to add the following:
A pronunciation guide might be useful .... but, probably, a LOT of work to compile!
In my search for books to learn the japanese language , I have discovered that there are dozens of them, + CDs and various other audio learning methods. How to pick the right one? I have bought several. Most focus on 'conversational' japanese and kanji characters, such as how to hail a taxi or directions to the hospital or a restaurant. That, of course, is essential knowledge when one goes to Japan. But they are short on gardening terms, so they are not very useful while reading books on japanese gardening. The little book "Let's Study Japanese" by Jun Maeda seems to be a good guide to those who would learn enough japanese to travel in Japan.
Can someone tell me how essential it is to learn Kanji? I am sorry to be so ignorant ... or is it laziness? :-[ If I am to read the japanese newspapers, I can see the need to learn it, but to read signage? Is it all in kanji as well?
Beyond audio cd's and emersion dvd's, I highly recommend you check local colleges for Japanese courses. I used car cd's and listened over and over. Also, join your local Japan America Society and let the members know your interest. Two of the local members took it on themselves to help me. The more Japanese you can understand and speak (not just read in romanji), the better your experience will be in Japan (exponentially)!
Kanji is the giant step you have to take if you want to access gardening books not published in English. Its hard work but if you take it in bites, it is do-able. I get hors d'oeuvre size bites of grammar and kanji every day from yokoso.com. Check it out.
If you ask specific questions about the garden terms, Edzard, Mike-san, and hopefully Lee soon can most likely answer. Although the romanji spelling will vary from one place in Japan to another, the kanji and pronunciation would be mostly the same.
thanks for the info. I tried the link Yokoso.com .... it is in all Japanese. Is there a way to view it in English? There may be a link on the site but I failed to recognize it!
I am "o" so sorry. Try yookoso.com.
Thanks, Don .... it looks very useful!!
gardendesignr, if you havent already found a good source for Japanese language, I found a site with a simply outline of sentence construction and common words. It is a small site but good info.
Thanks, Don, I'll check it out!!
Gardendesigner, I have added an additional language link on the links page:
Cool, Don, thanks!! 8)
you are going to miss me ;D
Truer words were never said .... I have great respect for your character and your knowledge ..... I wish you well in your new home and hopefully we will interact here in these pages.
Hi Don. Micheal
Let's make one. also list of plants .trees, bamboo, ground cover
I made list of bamboos for Jgarden.org but Robert somehow removed it from it's website I was working on list of tree and shurb for jgarden.org I wil check my old note.
Yama-san, let me know how you want to proceed.
I am thinking that list of Japanse garden term aslo list of Plants like Jgarden.org had.
plants list seems easy to start. Japanese name, botanical name and common English name and how, where to use is it. and adding some intrestin note about tree/plants, medicenall use, growth habit, use of plnta tree other than in garden and hardness zone etc.
I see wisteria planted at many Japanese garden in USA are not same as Japanese do.Plase look Jgarden.org's plants list.
I am not forgetting or giving up to make . I can't work this project with computer I am useing now. It is not mine. Once I settled in in Japan, I will work on it.
Mike, we have a beginning list already started for both Japanese garden terms and tea ceremony terms.
Where to look ?
Sorry - i was being lazy:
As a novice I was working to understand some terms. Just a few terms I find occupy my mind most when thinking of my garden design process. Interacting with some of the forum members seeking clarification (Thanks Edzard )
I thought I would post the enhanced wording here for a critique:
- Fuzei ?? ~ 'elegant' in today's world: an elegant woman has 'fuzei' and has certain 'air', as another one of the numerous readings of 'fresh breeze''mountain air'.. As in the sentence of 'the gardens a fresh breeze of (refreshing) design and offers a mountain air'..That is fuzei. Beyond that.. we go back to Keane and the Heian era.. Direct English Translation: appearance, air, taste, elegance, entertainment. The word is written with the characters of "breeze" and "feeling" in Japan. In gardening... That sense of what you feel when you experience reflections on the water, a deep shaded area...
- Shakkei ?? - using "borrowed landscape" from outside the garden as a part of the garden composition. Shakkei is not the 'distant view'. Shakkei is the device that 'captures' the view, except that capturing a live view is 'ikedori' and is a negative implication. Though 'ikedori' is the origin of 'shakkei'. Shakkei, which attempts to capture nature alive rather than create a less spectacular version, is included in sh?toku no sansui (?????, "natural mountain river").
- Miegakure ?? - A technique whereby providing only a partial view creates expectation. And the expectation and focus brings a revealing. Meigakure is 'revealing' the view/item, rather than hiding it: nature 'reveals a view, allows us to discover Nature in revealing itself'. It is well expressed in the phrase, "the flower bud, hidden from the eyes, becomes a bloom."
Michael a few thoughts that may be difficult to condense.., and these can be added to, or so I have found, as terms bridge meanings rather than frame meanings, infinite rather than finite. We seek definition, and yet these definitions to some specific degree, evolve and are infinite in their methodology. This makes them difficult to define as a definition. As once mentioned elsewhere the observation that "once we have defined 'it', that 'it', becomes obviated".
in old garden references, fuzei is moreso the 'breath of fresh mountain air' that one can find on an upslope in a copse of pine.
for shakkei I would suggest leaving out the ikedori part entirely as it is a reference of esoteric knowledge for the refinement of the methods once the mnemonic device is in place. One would probably ask, "how effective is that device you use, does it capture the sense of ____ alive? Is there life?" Confinement of a wild thing is anathema. Please see below*
The best text on the subject is by Teiji Ito, Space & Illusion. I do however, for simplicity to get started with a solid grasp of the variables is from Despina Sfakiotaki and would suggest to stay with:
Shakkei ??: Literally borrowed scenery. The method of incorporating a distant vista
into the composition of a garden. A river, the ocean, fields, forests, large trees, or even a
building may all serve as shakkei, but the most frequently borrowed scene is a distant
(my note: Gunter Nitschke also mentioned that the immediate micro scenery is borrowed through various devices within a short range of vision. the question is, "what should be emphasized and noticed?")
Enshaku ??: Distant borrowing, one of the four classified types of shakkei.
Fushaku ?: Downward borrowing, one of four classified types of shakkei.
Gyoushaku ??: Upward borrowing, one of the four classified types of shakkei.
Rinshaku ??: Adjacent borrowing, one of the four classified types of shakkei.
with these four directions, the devices may be the bamboo blind that is drawn down to 'frame a view', or horizontal branches or other angles that echo the borrowed scene, or the trunks of pine on either side, or the mnemonic shapes of shrubs in the foreground that echo the mountain in the background. The stones in a pathway could echo the tops of hills and mountains: one horizontal plane echoing the vertical plane.
*In the esoteric, when one begins to use mnemonic devices, the more subtle unconscious borrowing such as the pathway stone example, then one begins to feel that the scene is subtly 'alive/held', similar to a painting encapsulating a feeling that only comes visible in specific light or 'impressionism'. The entire space comes 'alive' rather than the focus on the one distant item that is being captured. The opposite of the wording holds, wherein the elegant description is that this space and this space alone has 'come alive' and the mnemonic devices 'hold the scene here'. Another way of expressing 'captured' to someone that does not get the nuance, which, is hard to 'get' and understand, necessitating much onion peeling and tears. :'(
Meigakure literally means 'hidden from sight', and in typical cryptic garden manner the opposite is what one does with the definition, reveal what is hidden from sight.
Having said all this, as with peeling an onion, these definitions/explanations would be deemed incorrect at another phase of learning, either previous or after the phase from which I am currently speaking from.
it all endlessly infinitely evolves.. but stays the same.. thank you for working through terms edzard
Quote from: gardesignr on May 06, 2008, 01:28:43 pm
Cool, Don, thanks!! 8)
This is a long ago thread, recently renewed. So I'll post one of my long-time favorite sites for plant names.
I like this one because it includes scientific name as well as Japanese name.
I occasionally visit this old site and wander around quite a bit. There are so many links to other sites.